On 21 December 2023, three of the public speakers at the ESCSC meeting were invited to an informal virtual meeting organised by Cllr Richard Warren with various councillors and Matthew Eady, Assistant Director of Leisure, in attendance.
As you will see, the overall theme was one of repeatedly gaslighting us that an evidence-led process had been followed, that committee members had fully debated the pros and cons and that Richmond Council knows what is best for us. They really do treat us like children. Alan Fransman made a very diplomatically-worded comment on the way council officers and some councillors interact with residents.
We were told several times that they were not willing to go over what had been previously discussed in the ESCSC meeting, which is extraordinarily arrogant, considering that so much of what was said at that meeting was either misguided or plain incorrect.
There were five points of interest:
- Matthew Eady and Cllr Julia Neden-Watts both tied themselves in knots on the question of why the health suite decision was brought to committee on 7 November 2023 in contradiction of the council’s statement made on 14 August 2023. The council’s defence simply does not add up and is not consistent. It is extremely unclear what is actually going to be in this long-awaited leisure strategy (now expected in June 2024!), but we are supposed to believe that their stated goal of increasing physical activity is some huge revelation that required deep thought and analysis!
- After Matthew Eady had said that he was going to be careful about what he said on the misuse of funding allegation (since we have a formal complaint filed), he promptly managed to dig himself into an even deeper hole.
- Chair of the ESCSC, Cllr Julia Neden-Watts (who is also the Deputy Leader of the council) did not know what the rules are for reallocation of budget at the committee level.
- Even though Matthew Eady is named as the author of the council’s report, it turns out that David Allister, Head of Culture, actually wrote it. This may explain why Matthew Eady couldn’t answer a single question that was put to him by committee members at the meeting on 7 November 2023.
- The council have changed strategy since the ESCSC meeting and Community Conversation. Not once in this 45 minute meeting was the energy usage of the health suite raised. They are now only talking about a desire to increase physical activity in the borough.
If your blood pressure can bear it, here’s the transcript:
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Hello. Good evening. So I’m Julia Neden-Watts and I’m the chair of the Environment, Sustainability, Culture and Sports committee at Richmond Council and just to make sure we have an effective meeting, then I’m going to sort of chair us through what, what’s essentially an informal meeting. I’d like to do some introductions. I’ll start with Alan, who’s the vice chair.
Cllr Alan Juriansz
Hi, I’m Alan Juriansz, I’m the vice chair of the Environment Committee and lead member for sport.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
And Matthew Eady.
Matthew Eady
Good evening and thanks, everybody for their time. I’m Matthew Eady, I’m the Assistant Director for Leisure at Richmond and Wandsworth council.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
And now the… some of the various ward councillors. Paulina.
Cllr Paulina Vassileva
Hello everyone, I’m councillor Paulina Vassileva, I’m a councillor for South Richmond.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Richard Warren.
Cllr Richard Warren
Hello, I’m Richard Warren, I’m a councillor for North Richmond.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
And Nancy Baldwin.
Cllr Nancy Baldwin
I’m Nancy Baldwin and I’m a councillor for North Richmond.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
We, we did have Richard Pyne, also councillor for North Richmond. I can’t see him on my screen, maybe he’s having trouble joining. And now, the members of public, thank you very much for meeting with us. Martin, do you want to just introduce yourself?
Martin Baker
Sure. So I am one of the three founders of the Health Suite Action Group, and Wendy… Wendy’s not here is she… Wendy Merchant and Mary Higgins are the other two founders of that group that was set up after the decision made on the 7th of November.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Thanks very much. And Alan.
Alan Fransman
Hi, I’m Alan Fransman, I’m a resident and member of pools in the Park, and I was, I was at the, the council committee meeting on the seventh.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Thanks. And Philippa.
Philippa Edmunds
Yes. Philippa Edmunds. I’m the swim rep for Pools on the Park, and I want to say thank you very much for having this meeting with us and to say how much we love our swimming pools. So we thank you, and I just want to say that we’re very, very positive about the pools. And thank you for talking to us again about the much loved health suite.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Okay. So I think it’s worth me saying at the start to manage expectations that we’re not here to undo the decision that was made at committee, but to, hear you, state your, the questions you have that we’ve heard about through the ward councillors and through other means. I think it would be helpful to set the context, the background, if you like, of that decision making. So I’m, I’m just going to go briefly to Matthew Eady and possibly also Councillor Juriansz as our sports lead to to set that context. And then we’ll address some of the questions that you’ve raised with us. Matthew.
Matthew Eady
Yeah. So I’m not going to go into the questions then because there were three particular questions that have come through the ward councillors. But in terms of the context, a report was drafted by the Head of Culture on Pools on the Park for, for Richmond. So well advised, well knowledgeable about Pools on the Park. And the purpose of the report was to, based on the council’s emerging strategy, which is well informed by lots of strategic needs analysis, which I explained at the committee, is moving our policy forward to one where we are keen as a council to make sure that we provide facilities, services, support to try and get as many people as physically active as possible across a life course.
And with that huge amount of strategic needs assessment done and, you know, research and good practice, a decision was based on that to provide a group exercise studio so we can develop more programmes and attract people that are not typically leisure users — a broader range of people — children, parents, families, older adults, and in particular there is a strong desire from the NHS to work much closer to us and provide lots more health-related programs at Pools in the Park and at Teddington. And to be able to do that, we need space to be able to do that. So that is the background to the decision, and, and why our policy is to get more people, more active, more often across their life course.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
All right. Thanks. Alan, is there any… sorry Alan Juriansz I should say, is there anything you wanted to add to that before we go to the questions?
Cllr Alan Juriansz
Yeah. I just want to say, it’s nice to see you again. I think all three of you were at the committee and all spoke to the, to the report. I think you all probably agree it was quite a long and detailed discussion of the, of the, of the report and the options that are on the table. I think, I, I, I was understanding there were some specific questions you, you’d raised about things which you wanted answered after that. So I think that’s what I’d like to, i’d certainly like to, find a way to answer those questions for you and, and try and move on really. Thank you.
Oh sure let’s all just “move on”, nothing to see here…
How inconvenient that those pesky residents are holding the council to account for their flawed decision making…
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Yeah. Okay. So let, let, let’s get on with those questions then now. But there may be other things, but I know that there are some questions around the freedom of information requests. There were some questions about the issues that we had regarding the technology and the meeting recording. And there are some issues around, complaints made, whether that’s into the environment part of the council or to the finance part of the council. So did you… so over to you as residents, were there any of those particular things that you wanted to pick up on now?
Philippa Edmunds
Are you asking us for additional questions?
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
No, no, I’m asking you about those particular things at this stage.
Martin Baker
Well, I mean, I don’t think the FOI stuff is particularly, useful to discuss right now, it’s not a priority. The priority is the the two main questions are, well, three main questions. Why was it brought to committee, going against the statement made on 14th of August 2023? Number one. Why there’s no approved budget for conversion to a group exercise studio. The approved budget is for health suite refurbishment and refurbishment has a very specific meaning. And then why, why were residents views ignored when we when we know, well we knew three days before the committee meeting, after two years, that 82% of members of Pools on the Park wanted a new health suite?
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Okay. Thank you. So we’ve we’ve got the, the issue of the date of bringing to the committee, questions around the use of the budget and the question of the consultation in the wider context of how we make decisions at the Council. Matthew, would you, do you want to address those?
Matthew Eady
I’ll take a first stab in the order that I’ve got them, which is why was it brought to committee before the leisure strategy. So I thought I did try and explain that at committee. Where… that all the strategic needs assessment work has been done that has enabled us to have a framework to understand what our priorities are. To take it to the next level. We are now going to consult with stakeholders to make sure that it aligns with our views, and that’s started and get people on board and write the strategy.
OK so the leisure strategy has not yet been written.
And unfortunately, the committee dates that are next available were not until the spring. If we could have done it early, we would have done it earlier. But it’s very clear from the partnership, from the system, from our stakeholders, that… and Sport England and the Department for Health, that leisure strategy should be driven by trying to support people to be active. In, in particular those who are inactive or from groups that are less likely to participate in physical activity. There’s quite strong direction from Sport England and by the government that health and integration with health should be an essential part of the council’s leisure services.
Er what? The ESCSC meets six times a year for up to 3 hours, so why is Matthew Eady now blaming “committee dates”?
The last four ESCSC meetings have had durations of 2h9m, 1h22m, 1h30m & 1h34m, so there’s no evidence that committee time is at a premium.
Therefore, in order not to lose another six, nine months, we were keen to move forward with a recommendation for a group exercise studio because that will take 12, 18 months, two years to deliver and adding another 6 or 7 months on why the leisure strategy articulates what we know is our policy to get more people, more active, more often, using health programmes as well. We thought that was not beneficial to the residents, and we were very keen to try and bring that forward sooner. So it was about our ambition to try and provide activities and services for our residents sooner, because we already knew the direction of travel with our strategy. So, so that’s the first one.
This is utter nonsense. There is no advantage to making this decision now because his own (ahem actually David Allister’s) report said that the works will only be carried out as part of the Pools on the Park refurbishment, which as Cllr Alan Juriansz told us at the Community Conversation event, is waiting on the leisure strategy to be completed!
They can’t get their story straight and continually tie themselves in knots…
5. Planning & Consent
Subject to approval, the works will be included in a wider package of capital works planned at Pools on the park to reduce disruption and potentially realise economies of scale. Due to the listed status of the building a single planning application will be required. All of the works are managed by Design Services.
Extract from the council’s proposal dated 7 November 2023.
Martin Baker
Can I, can I just respond very quickly to that? I’m just, I’m just going to read back something that was said in the meeting where Councillor Neden-Watts said:
“I’m sensing the question. I’m seeing value in it. Are we to grasp that the assessment hasn’t been fully done, but through the leisure facilities strategy, work and assessment of need of health benefits for health suite could emerge from that. Do we have that evidence or is it something that we need to gather?”
And Mr. Eady said:
“So there isn’t a tool to be able to demonstrate the demand for a spa facility in a public sector asset. They’re quite rare.”
That is a false statement. If you looked at our website, that’s a false statement. And you know what the demand is because we have the 2021 survey results. So I just like to some clarification on that, because that doesn’t make sense.
Matthew Eady
So we’re not going to rehearse this. But there isn’t a tool to to determine demand in health suites. There isn’t. There is a tool for gyms and group exercise and swimming and stuff like that, they’re established tools.
Note how Matthew Eady takes issue with the lack of tools rather than the actual issue of measuring level of demand from actual resident data vs modelling.
So we, we provide leisure facilities not just for the existing users, of Pools on the Park. You know, for me it’s an underutilised asset. We should have many, many more people using that facility from a much broader range of the community. and we need to provide facilities that enable that to happen.
As mentioned in the ESCSC meeting, this is another example of Richmond Council revealing that they are making decisions based on computer modelling data.
Martin Baker
Right, but you’re down by 831 members since 2019. You do understand that, right?
Matthew Eady
I do understand that, yes.
Martin Baker
So why have those members left?
Matthew Eady
So I’ve got a list of why everyone’s left since 2022. And there’s hardly anyone has talked about the health suite.
We’ve now filed a FOI request to get the data on why members are cancelling their memberships.
Martin Baker
But you, you have the survey results, the freeform survey results. Right? With all that… you’ve read, the freeform survey results yeah?
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Okay, sorry. Can I just go to Philippa who’s trying to make a point here?
Philippa Edmunds
One point to make is that I know people who have left and who have not been asked, why have they left the facility. And I think one of the things that came across was that when some of the councillors were discussing it, they weren’t really aware of the integral nature of the health suite as part of the leisure offering, for all types of users, not just for the people who are very fit. There are a lot of people who are quite old who were using that facility, and I know that that they feel very lost without it because they they asked, they’ve asked me. I’ve had lots of people asking and as Alan’s excellent report showed, the health suite… the benefits of a health suite are considerable. And that report didn’t really examine them.
And another point to make was that you make a… rightfully say how important it is for, these facilities to be affordable. Well, if people can’t come to Richmond, which is affordable, say, for health suite, most of the private clubs are hugely expensive, so I feel as though you’re missing some of, some of it. And and you say here, actually the group exercise room is only going to, it’s only forecast to increase membership by 1%. And the point which was hard to make, was that irrespective of the health suite, the case for an additional exercise class is not made at the moment because studio one is not… is underutilised. So you could be putting quite a lot of other courses on. There are a few classes which are oversubscribed. And then there are some others which are not popular. And then there are big gaps every day. So that objection of ours wasn’t really answered.
And it’s also expensive to convert the space, you’ve got four load bearing pillars, so it’s not as though it’s necessarily a space that will be necessarily even lends itself to becoming an exercise room anyway.
All excellent points. In addition, the former health suite area is access-controlled through a keypad because it is in the members’ area. So how can that possibly work with general public access for classes and other purposes?
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Okay, so, so the, the, the costs of fitting it out have been looked at. And I’m, I’m very aware that we don’t have a great deal of time and we’re not here to re-rehearse the, the discussion that we had at committee where a decision was made about the health suite. Alan, did you want to come in on that point or something new?
Cllr Alan Juriansz
Yes, it was on that point. And I think these, these, these comments that we’re hearing, we did actually hear these at the committee and I, and I appreciate they’re heartfelt, but, they were all, they were all made and, and I think we, the members of the committee, actually did, consider them quite carefully. And I think, I think it’s appreciated. We did. I mean, you, you, you were there. You saw that the discussion that we had.
Martin Baker
It was shambolic. I’m sorry. I have to be honest, I was shocked.
Cllr Alan Juriansz
We’re not going…
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Sorry, could you let Alan finish? Thanks.
Cllr Alan Juriansz
We’re not here to re, reopen it, because this isn’t a committee where there’s only…
Martin Baker
No, it’s not a committee, but it’s important that we go over this stuff because it was shambolic. I’m sorry. Can we move on to the next point about the funding?
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Absolutely. Unless Matthew, did you have anything further? You’re ready to move on to the funding?
Matthew Eady
No, I’m happy to move on.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Okay, let’s move on to the funding then. So this is about the, the allocation of funding, in the budget to, for the refurbishment of the area in question.
Matthew Eady
So I’m conscious that there is a complaint in the system about the alleged misappropriation of council funding or capital budget. So I’ll be careful on how I answer this, because that is going through a process. But the council has the ability and does refresh its capital programme based on its priorities and needs every year. All councils do that. So we’re doing that now as part of our annual process where some capital might not be delivered, some of it would be moved backwards, other priorities come forward because there’s a limited capital budget within the council. And that’s typical for every council, it normally gets approved as part of its February budget.
This committee agreed to the, the allocated funding that was originally previously earmarked for the health suite, to be earmarked for the group exercise studio, because the committee at that same meeting decided not to pursue the health suite and therefore that capital sum has become available, and therefore the committee has the ability to be able to approve those capital funds.
Martin Baker
Up to £100,000. What was the budget for this?
Matthew Eady
Well…
The cost of the group exercise studio is £140,000.
Martin Baker
No, that’s correct, isn’t it, Julia? That’s up to £100,000, you can reallocate. Correct?
Matthew Eady
Well, we can go back….
Martin Baker
Julia? Would you like to respond?
Matthew Eady
Julia are you there? I think she’s frozen.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
I… no I’m here, the [pause] my hesitancy is… you, you’re, you’re clearly referring to something which isn’t in front of me. So if I, if I mislead you, that would be unfortunate.
Martin Baker
OK that’s fine.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
So, so I’m not going to.
Martin Baker
No comment OK.
Since Cllr Nancy Baldwin was attending this meeting (who just happens to be Vice-Chair of the Finance, Policy and Resources Committee), it is very interesting that she didn’t interject at this point to clarify what the council’s constitution states:
Each service committee is permitted to repurpose existing funds or use new income streams up to £100,000. Any repurposing of funds or use of additional income in excess of £100,000 requires the approval of the Finance, Policy & Resources Committee.
Richmond Council Constitution
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
We can check. And as Matthew says, the other reason for hesitancy is we’re aware there is a complaint about this and that will be looked at through the proper, proper channels. So….
Martin Baker
Maybe we shouldn’t go into this because there is a complaint. So let’s not go into this. Can we, can we have some other… what was the other question. The ignoring of residents’ views, number three.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
So this was about consultation, as I said in the context of other inputs, in the context in which councils make decisions about things. Matthew, do you want to address this?
Matthew Eady
Yeah. So as… you’re quite right, there was a strong number of people from the survey that of, of Pools in the Park, primary users that wanted to retain the the health suite. But there also was a borough-wide survey where swimming pools and indoor pools and group exercise studios and fitness suites featured above health suites as activities and facilities that they wish to utilise to participate in physical activity but our job as a council is to incorporate all the feedback, all the data, all the insight, all the good practice, all the guidance from Sport England and the Department of Health and come to the best decision for the majority of our residents. And our policy at the moment is to provide opportunities for more people, to be more active, more often and to enable that to happen, an additional group exercise studio with health programmes that aren’t able to be delivered there.
So we’ve got the NHS waiting for as soon as it’s ready to start helping us provide activities there, will enable us to do that. So as, as Councillor Neden-Watts said, we need to take in all the information, not just one part of it, to make the most informed and value for money decision for our residents.
Martin Baker
Right…
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Phillipa, did you… you’re waving your hand there, Philippa. Yeah.
Philippa Edmunds
Could I just ask, the Head of Culture is that David Allister who wrote the report?
Matthew Eady
Yes.
Philippa Edmunds
Because one of the things that came across when I talked to Pool staff was that the managers have been very anti… I have to just say they just didn’t seem to want to, to refurbish the facility and I couldn’t really understand why because, because it was very popular. And the other thing I’m a bit surprised about is that, that one of your councillors voted, sorry spoke at the meeting in favour of it, but also you haven’t invited… has the Green councillor, Richmond councillor, was he asked to take part today? Because not only is he a Richmond councillor, he’s also on the Environment, Sustainability, Sustainability and leisure committee. So I thought it would be quite, would have been quite useful to have input from the opposition. What they asked to take….
The Green Party councillor in question is Cllr Chas Warlow who voted against the council’s proposal to convert the health suite into a group exercise studio.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
So to answer your question honestly, no, because this was something that was arranged [pause] between us and the Assistant Director to address your questions and not to undo the decision that we made at committee as, as I’ve said, so as an opposition member. I mean, I take your point. He could have, you know, he could have taken part. We didn’t ask him. I’m not quite sure where that, that’s leading you in terms of your questioning of the officer or…
Philippa Edmunds
No, I mean, it was, it was just an observation, it wasn’t… it was just an observation because… you know obviously…
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
He’s not, he’s, he’s, he’s not contacted me himself about it as far as I’m, I’m aware, so… and he’s not one of the directly local…
Oh yes he is! Cllr Chas Warlow is extremely local since he’s one of the three councillors in the South Richmond ward.
Philippa Edmunds
I’m just trying to represent because in fact, I wasn’t a health suite user, but so many people have asked about it and asked me to, to take it up. So it’s just because people do actually feel very disillusioned actually, that, and, because, you know, because, because they really valued it. So that’s why I’m, you know, that’s why I’m trying to, to represent.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Yeah. No, I appreciate that. And I think that committee understood that. And that’s why, as Alan said, we discussed it and why we, I think, added additional recommendation in there that officers would consider with health colleagues with whom they’re going to be working closely, what other provision is available and how we can look at that in a wider context. So not just a leisure and physical activity context, but a wider health context across the borough. Sorry, Alan, you’ve been patiently there with your hand up. Please go ahead.
Alan Fransman
Look, I think, let me just start by saying, you know, regardless of, of what, of what, of what councillors are saying, they also need to take into account that, you know, that residents, members and voters are intelligent people who see, who see, evidence and documentation and understand what it means. And, and, within this situation, there was plenty of evidence from, from residents, communities, voters that there was a demand for the health suite. And, and, there wasn’t for a new exercise studio. And the evidence that the council is reaching for is a, is a strategy, a national strategy you know, that isn’t embedded in anything that anyone has said to you, that anyone’s come to a meeting to you, to ask for, but, but added to that, I think the important things that I’d like to land today is just we really need to look at the, the health benefits of a health suite, it aligns with Richmond’s, the council’s own strategy for a healthier borough.
Also, the evidence numerous scientific papers, medical papers suggest that essentially, that sitting in a, in a sauna or a steam room, has the equivalent benefits of exercise. It’s almost the same. And when you consider that people, there are many people with mobility issues, who just aren’t able to go to exercise studios or don’t necessarily want to do exercise in a group, you know, there’s a very narrow profile of people who want to do that kind of thing, the thing you, you, you want to build a room in which to do. You know, some, lots of people would just prefer to sit in one, in a, in a, in a health, in a, in a, in a, in a health suite and, and derive the same benefits that they would have in a group exercise studio that they would feel very uncomfortable in anyway. So it’s important to understand how a health suite would meet all of, all of those requirements that are specified in this national, national strategy that I haven’t seen shared on any part of the, of the council’s website.
So more importantly, I mean, if we aren’t going to get one at Pools on the Park, I mean, I note that the, the minutes say that you will look at a full feasibility study and look at putting a health suite somewhere else. Could we get timelines on this and and understand what, what your plan is and where, where we, at what stage will end up with the health suite somewhere else? Because there are many other boroughs, there are many other councils who believe that, that their residents should have access to a health suite, but for some reason, our borough council doesn’t think it’s necessary.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Yeah, I think, I don’t know whether this is helpful or not, but it’s a statement of fact rather than anything else, is that, that there’s no statutory obligation for us to, to provide that. So we look at the spaces we have, we look at the needs that there are, and we try and do our best with the limited funds available to make those things match up. I think it is worth bearing that in mind. In terms of looking elsewhere and sort of assessing that need, and as I mentioned, working with health colleagues, Matthew is working very closely with health colleagues as he has done previously to, to make sure that we are considering overall the health benefits for the borough and the borough’s residents. I don’t know whether you want to add anything on that, Matthew.
Matthew Eady
Yeah and we made a commitment at committee to do that as well. And that, you know, that will come through in the leisure strategy as well, you’ve got, you’ve all made it very clear. And there are health benefits to, to a health suite. I suppose the decision was taken because we want to have influence over a much broader and wider range of residents. You know, I’ve got some statistics here. Nearly 20% of adults are inactive in Richmond, 47% of children are not meeting their daily recommended levels of activity. Nearly 11% of children in year six are obese. 45% of adults are obese. So, you know, we’ve got an endemic here that we need to, as a local authority, try and support people to be able to have the recommended levels of physical activity, to be able to address some of those needs, you know, it’s all these decisions are difficult in finite facilities and finite budgets.
You know, Richmond only has two leisure centres that are open during the day. You know, other [inaudible] have others. So, you know, I appreciate, I’m so, you know, really impressed by the passion that you all have, you know, for health of the residents, you know, and for, you know, the other users that that value Pools on the Park. And I’m really pleased to hear that you, you value that as well so… but, you know, the decision we’ve made has been made in the best interests of our residents, particularly the ones that are inactive and the ones that we want to support to be active.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Yeah. Philippa, did you have your hand up?
Philippa Edmunds
Sorry, I can’t remember what I was going to say. Yeah, I think the one things about saying, you’re going to make a health suite, put a health suite somewhere else is that the point is, and when I mentioned this to people, but they say, we want to use the health suite when… after we’ve done something else so it is an integral part of the whole, of the whole, of the whole offering. So… and also, it is very concerning about, you know, the reduction in membership. And I know that some of the people who, who were disappointed about the decision, they were waiting to see what your decision was in November, whether to, to join or rejoin.
And we, we have got a very stark reduction in membership. And, you know, some of that is definitely because people, people are upset about losing the health suite. And, so that was all really. And also to say that, but I’ve discussed it with Matthew is, can I make a cry for marketing needed for the centre too. It’s a fantastic centre, and it’s a jewel in the crown, but we do need, it needs ongoing marketing.
Matthew Eady
I completely agree with… sorry. am I OK to answer that?
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Yeah.
Matthew Eady
I completely agree with that. And you know, it’s early days, but I’ve been meeting with our marketing and our public health colleagues. We’re going to be doing a public health campaign to try and get people more active in January. So, I’m hoping that’s just the start. So, you know, it’s really important. And you know, we need to work much closer with our schools with, you know, our GP surgeries and stuff like that. So yes, I agree, Philippa, we’re on a journey. And you know, I’ve got over 25 years of experience of managing multi, multi-million pound leisure services and, you know, please, you know, bear with us, it will improve and the membership numbers will improve as well.
Philippa Edmunds
Because I don’t think it’s… the health… the, the professionals who are working at the pool that… they’re, they’re sports professionals, they’re not marketing professionals. So it’s not something they can do. But can I just say, I’m really pleased to see that the bus that I campaigned for the 490 for about seven years, I’m really pleased to see that some of the schools are now using instead of having to hire coaches.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Yeah, that’s, that’s great. It is a good, that is a really good improvement. I know my own son used to go on the, on the bus as well, and I think it’s a good point that the people who are sports professionals aren’t necessarily the ones who should be doing the marketing. And I think that’s something that’s well understood. OK, so I’m aware we’re over our time. I’m happy to go on for a few more minutes, because clearly there’s still some more things to be said, so I’ve got Martin and then Alan with questions or points. So, Martin, off you go.
Martin Baker
So, this is, this is not going to conflict with the, the budgetary, formal complaint, but there was a reallocation, in February 2023, which was the last budget approval for capital programme and that budget approval was for £47,000 for year 2022 to 2023, leaving £140,000, which just happens to be how much the group exercise studio estimate cost was for this current year. I was just wondering how much of that £47,000 was spent because Mr. Eady, in an email on 7th of November, you told me that the strip out cost was £5,500. Today I got an FOI request come back and I was told it was £13,915 for the strip out cost.
Matthew Eady
I mean, I would have to go back and check that. I mean, I would have, I wouldn’t have got that information myself. I would have got it from our design services who manage all the capital programmes. You know, my service doesn’t manage them, we’re the client. So, but I can, I can look into that for you. So what did you say?
Martin Baker
So you told me £5,500, I mean, that’s too cheap for… that’s why I put the FOI in, because I didn’t believe it was £5,500.
Matthew Eady
And what did the FOI?
Martin Baker
£13,915.
Matthew Eady
I’ll get, I’ll get back to you on that. So I’m unsighted but.
Martin Baker
But I’ll just, just to make the point there in the report it said there was £187K allocated budget that that’s not you didn’t have £187K allocated what you had total but you’d already spent some and and in fact on this year you don’t have, you know, you had £47,000 allocated for last year. So I just want to make that point.
Matthew Eady
Since it’s capital it would carry it through, it’s not like revenue you have to spend it or lose it.
Martin Baker
OK.
Matthew Eady
So, but it might be that the strip out was done by facilities management services because it… you can’t spend capital unless something happens.
Martin Baker
OK.
Matthew Eady
So, so, but I’ll come back to you. It’s not a problem.
Martin Baker
OK.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
OK. Thank you for that and Alan Fransman.
Alan Fransman
Right, just, just two points, really. The first is actually, I wanted to make the other point that the, a health suite at any, at any, exercise facility would attract more members. I mean, that’s just a basic fact so it’s… so in addition to the direct, the direct benefits of using it, it would just attract more people to the gym and essentially, like on a, on a cold night like this, the idea that you could go and sit in a warm place after you’ve been exercising is, is an attraction to people, but I just want to come to the point, the question, the the question I made in my previous statement is, is, is going back to the minutes and, and your resolution to do the feasibility study and look at whether you could put a health suite somewhere else. What are your timelines for that action?
Matthew Eady
So I thought I did say earlier, so feasibility work has already been done on Pools on the Park. So and all that work is being incorporated into the leisure strategy. So, you know, it’s much wider than Pools on the Park, it’s what should our infrastructure be to support a sport and physical activity strategy. So all of that will be considered, to, make recommendations and actions on how we deliver our sport, leisure and physical activity over the next five years.
Er what? So now Matthew Eady is saying that feasibility work has already been done for Pools on the Park? This gets more and more confusing…
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
So I guess, what, in terms of timeline, what’s the next thing that residents can expect in terms of the work of the committee and or whether it’s the, whether it’s our committee or the health committee or somehow in between, you know, working together?
Matthew Eady
So I think the leisure strategy is due to come in June, in 2024.
Philippa Edmunds
So will it be out for consul… will it be out for consultation or?
Matthew Eady
No, not, not consultation on a strategy. No.
Philippa Edmunds
But, but it will be issued in June.
Matthew Eady
It will come to committee to whether they wish to adopt it. Hopefully they will, and then once it’s adopted, it will become our policy, our strategy, and there’ll be an action plan associated with it.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
So just add to that, the consultation work for the leisure strategy has been, an ongoing process and that will feed into it along with all the other studies, evidence bases, sort of input from ex, experts and colleagues and things like that. So that, that consultation has happened. Once the papers are published, then they will publish, they’ll be made public, and then there’ll be an opportunity to comment on those then in the run up to the committee that. Just… I hope that clarifies. Yeah.
Martin Baker
Sorry, I don’t think that’s clear at all, Alan’s question was about the feasibility study for the health suite, not the leisure strategy.
Matthew Eady
[pause] As part of….
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
It will be considered as in it, it will be considered in the context of the, of the whole thing.
Martin Baker
So now you’re linking the… so now you’re linking the two together again when previously… which you have done in the past. You yourself Julia said in January that they’re linked but…
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
We’ve never entirely detached them Martin that, that this is.
Martin Baker
[laugh] You did detach them on the 7th of November when you made decision on the health suite, didn’t you?
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
In the context of the work that had been done on the wider leisure strategy, that’s….
Martin Baker
Which will not be presented until June 2024! You can’t have it both ways, can you! Come on!
Matthew Eady
Martin, I think… I’m trying to reassure you that decisions have been made on a huge body of evidence and information and insight.
Martin Baker
No.
Matthew Eady
Following the Sport England’s framework, that has enabled us to feel confident that that decision will support our strategy objectives, which is, and I hope you agree with these, we want more of our residents across a broader wide range to be more healthy. So it’s, you know, from babies to pregnant mothers all the way across the life course. And the investment in a group exercise studio enables that to happen.
Martin Baker
And we can hold you to that when, when and watch out how much revenue it makes, can we? Balanced against the loss of 831 gold paying members.
Matthew Eady
So… that’s not how that those things are worked out. Martin, as you know, they’re not 800 all gold members, and they’re… the whole industry has had a reduction in membership. The only thing that’s recovered since Covid is swimming, which has exceeded expectation.
Martin Baker
Great.
Matthew Eady
But we’re rehearsing stuff that we’ve already talked about at committee.
Martin Baker
[sigh].
Matthew Eady
I, I honestly… we are making decisions in good faith for the health value benefits of our community.
Martin Baker
Four formal complaints say otherwise, but we’ll see what comes out of those complaints.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Okay, so I think that’s a good moment to look at what happens next. And as we’ve repeated, we’re not undoing the decision that was made at committee, but we’re aware there are some things that will happen next. One, one is that the leisure strategy will be developed and will come to committee, another will be that the formal complaints will be followed up in the proper way, and if there’s any freedom of information requests in the system, then I would hope that they would also be followed up in the proper way.
And on that note with, well, thank you for your contributions. We’ve, we’ve, we’ve had a discussion, a frank one, I hope. I’m aware that we will not have said everything that was, was to your liking, but I hope you understand that channels of communication remain open. And the… what I would like to also indicate that we make challenging decisions in a wide context at the council. A lot of the decisions we make will not be ones that can possibly please everybody because it, it’s not feasible to do that. So we, on the, on the basis of evidence, that’s how we make decisions. And that’s what we’ve done in this situation. And we feel that it’s a supportable decision. And I know you’re shaking your head at me and you fundamentally disagree. But as Matthew said, it was a decision made in good faith. And the work we do is done in good faith. So just Philippa, desperately keen to come in on.
Philippa Edmunds
Just one question. The fact that the studio one is underutilised. I know studio two is now a spin room again, but studio one is underutilised. Why wasn’t it looked at to, to use the space in studio one? And as I said, some of the classes are very popular, oversubscribed. Some of them aren’t very popular. So it’s just that you’ve got that resource there before you embark on another exercise room. It’s just, that’s, I find that’s quite surprising really.
Matthew Eady
So Philippa, I appreciate your comments. I suppose, I want to be much more ambitious for our leisure offer in the borough, you know, in, in centres similar to Pools on the Park, in terms of facilities, I would expect to be having over 100 exercise classes a week, you know, going concurrently and back to back and in different studios, you know, and that’s where we need to be. I look at the reason why people have volunteered to give their or have been asked their membership up, and lots of them are, because they can’t get into group exercise studios at the times that they want. They’re too busy. So… and if you look at national data on, what most members use, the most, 60% of them use group exercise studios, group exercise classes.
So, you know, it’s… I don’t know what you’re like but I find it really difficult to go to a gym and do the gym session by myself. I’m not just not motivated, but if I go to a group with people and it’s instructor led, I’m more likely to do it. You know, we want to build a community of people that want to get healthy together. So, and I appreciate some of it’s been difficult hearing tonight, but I can only assure you that mine, the council’s interests here, are to try and help our residents be more healthy. So, you can guarantee that, you know, I’m super passionate about it.
Cllr Julia Neden-Watts
Okay. I’m aware that that some of you have other things, that you need to prepare for now. So we’ll draw a line under it there. Thank you all for attending. And, no doubt we’ll all be in touch one way or another. And, have a good, have a good Christmas season and we’ll see you in the new year. Thank you very much.